Curse

EFGJack · May 31, 2011, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Some of you may recall my old build from the H/H era (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10434178.html) – This is the build taken to 7H level. This is for a warrior primary and it may be possible for a warrior secondary to play these bars but I do not recommend it. This build can be played by c+spacing in general content or by bodyblocking and AEing in the elite zones. The Smiter Monk can carry EoE or Soil for elite zones.

This build's effectiveness scales with one's ability to micromanage one's heroes. Although it fares well without the player telling the heroes what to do. At the very least I do recommend flagging your heroes out of DoTAOE spells such as Meteor Shower, though.

I recommend +armor insignia and 40/40 weapon sets on every hero. The [Weapons] NPCs in Vasburg Armory and Leviathan Pits craft these for little common materials and 5 platinum a piece.

Quote:

1. [W/X] Player

One build from every weapon spec. Because one performs better than the other in specific end-game zones. In General PvE you can run what you prefer. "I Am The Strongest!" should be taken out for Asuran Scan in areas with heavy melee hate.

Axe - OQASEZJT8VRFKF7g2FzkXF0k

I prefer this Axe build in the elite ones of the City of Torc'qua & Ravenheart Gloom Hard Modes because of the zone-wide effects: Warrior's Endurance counters Repressive Energy and supplies energy for excessive Asuran Scan usage in RHG. Combined with Splinter it has great AOE potential.

Hammer - OQASE5JT8ViFiP7gJOzkXF0k

Earth Shaker can mitigate more damage than a Soul Twister in zones such as Stygian Veil and Catacombs of Kathandrax, and with Stonefist Insignia, Renewing Smash offers the best single-target DPS out of all three builds.

Sword - OQASEZKT8VCFLOTNxgzkXF0k

Hundred Blades effectively adds +24 slashing damage to each attack, but without Whirlwind Attack and Mark of Pain I decided to go with a common DSlash/SY build instead. This build shines in zones with insane AOE damage such as the Foundry of Failed Creations (IATS < Asuran Scan for Foundry).

2. [Mo/Me] Unyielding Healer - OwUUA1X10hSME3VNgbETfdR9A5U

The main Healer of this build. Shield of Absorption is there so you can maintain a rotation. He utilizes Drain Delusion to leech energy off of the two Mesmers.

3. [Mo/E] Strength of Honor Smiter - OwYT44XCzxlcXp++MrfXEZMPA

This hero provides the other half of the SoA chain required to survive bodyblocks in certain zones, and increased melee damage with SoH. This smiter can run spirits such as EoE and Frozen Soil without losing functionality.

4. [Rt/Mo] Channeling Smiter - OAOj4whjIPYMv5Cxn5SYmXM5BA

With 7 hero slots you can only bring so much, and Splinter Weapon is one of those things. After some testing I noticed you can crank in every useful skill from a Balthazar's Spirit Smiter and a Channeling Support Ritualist into one bar.

5. [Rt/E] Soul Twister - OAaiQyg8gNDnWvj50kaiMcm

With only two spirits, Shelter has a very good uptime. Dulled Weapon is a substitute for Union and can prevent more damage than Union due to removing Critical Hit ability, and providing damage reduction without consuming a charge of Soul Twisting. Binding Chains helps to keep foes in place.

6. [N/Rt] BiP Support - OAhjQshqhO3hq6jAqOJmcDzxJ

This hero is a pure support class. He provides your party with resources and healing. Kaolai and Spirit Light can be changed for Pure Was Li Ming and Mend Body and Soul in zones with mass conditions: Frostmaw's Burrows, the Foundry of Failed Creations & Shards of Orr.

7. [Me/E] Illusions Mesmer - OQZDE8kQSvArAIg5ZkAEB5UID

Standard Ineptitude Mesmer. Hasty players can change GoLE for "Fall Back!".

8. [Me/E] Domination Mesmer - OQZDIMkTOFBaw0z0hTJC5UkB

GoLE can be swapped for "Fall Back!", Shatter Enchantment to Shatter Hex, and Panic to Energy Surge.

Build reworked: Basic idea remains the same, but several heroes were either modified or removed.

Comments and critique are welcomed.

chuckles79 · May 31, 2011, 07:57 PM // 19:57

The only problem I see is that you are relying on the sometimes poor timing of heroes using RoJ. Unless you intend to micro, or run out in front to ball the group up, you could end up with some embarassing RoJ misses.
It all looks good in theory though.

Plutoman · May 31, 2011, 08:17 PM // 20:17

That would be where he said it scales with player's skill - hotkeying the RoJ's to a few keys, targeting and dropping at the proper times is relatively simple micromanagement. The little touches like those means a build can perform remarkably well, in contrast to the current meta which relies upon people c-spacing.

Looks pretty solid. Don't play warrior, so I can't necessarily critique it.

AndrewSX · May 31, 2011, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Same as above, but if you can micro it you should be fine.
I'd prefer Unsteady Ground for the Ele if you're looking for keep stuff in AoE tho, swapping one of the KD for Eruption.
Is still a mini "tank and spank" tactict i suppose.
Nice to have added a bunch of skills for the variations, almost nobody do it.
I'll try it out with my sin, just thinking about what to change on heroes to do it.

P.S: Brace Yourself! + Drunken/Desperate Blow is epic.

Mike Jack · May 31, 2011, 08:41 PM // 20:41

One cool thing that caught my eye was the synergy with Brace Yourself and Drunken/Desperation Blow. Never noticed that before

. I'm not positive how well heroes will use BY though.

EFGJack · May 31, 2011, 08:43 PM // 20:43

The heroes are pisspoor at using Brace Yourself - they only use it when somebody gets Knocked down, so it has to be microed every time you're about to hit Drunken/Desperation. It's pretty annoying at start but it becomes a reflex rather fast.

Squishy ftw · May 31, 2011, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Looks pretty good. I'd probably run this as an ES warrior with Dark Fury thrown in somewhere though. I don't like microing too much and this way you more easily control enemy movement.

Aura of Thorns + teardown seems like another good option for the frontliner.

hunter · May 31, 2011, 10:54 PM // 22:54

2x BiP?
Earthstorm ele?
Roj on rit instead of the mighty SoS?
No Judge's insight even though you have 2 BiP????

No, i hope you are advanced enough to realize why this is bad.

But in case someone bitches about this post here we go:

BiP is a wasted elite spot, i would much rather take AOTL and/defile enchantment of prot heavy areas. Now you have 2 BiPs? worthless. Contrary to popular belief RoJ monks do not have energy problems unless you load them up with bullshit spells (like brace yourself)

Standstorm eles require your enemies to be balled up, which is not always the case, and if you manage to get them balled up, autoattacks + splinter is enough to wipe down most groups. Standstorm eles would be overkill in this case, and worthless when enemies are spread up, like popups and so one. In either case, its not needed. I know you are trying to be original but in this case its not needed.

16 chan SoS will do more dmg than 12 smiting RoJ, end of story. Spirits offer the added benefit of tanking and distraction, which is good.

No judges insight even though you have 2 BiPs making energy a non issue. Come on man, you know better.

In short, its nice to make creative builds but this is one is suboptimal at best (read: bad)

Now since your ego can't obviously take all this criticism, i look forward to your attempt flames, so bring it on.

FoxBat · May 31, 2011, 10:58 PM // 22:58

If you're a lazy c+spacer and don't like bow pull/balling, I've found you can catch most aggro very easily with death's charge right into a preclumped pack, setting up your AoE. Hilariously effective in shards for instance.

Towards the end of hero smiteway people were abusing the much weaker PvP version of brace yourself with grapple on assassins, it is a solid interaction if you can do the micro.

jensyea · May 31, 2011, 11:28 PM // 23:28

physical instability would rock in this build

itiscurtains · Jun 01, 2011, 02:35 AM // 02:35

@hunter: There's only one copy of BiP. Read the description of the earth ele - "His elite slot is versatile and he can take over the BiP necro's role."
Also, JI doesn't work with MoP.
And 12 specced RoJ against a ball of snared foes is better than 16 specced SoS.

@EFGJack: The build looks really interesting, thanks. Going to give it a whirl. I wonder, though - would taking Earthbind on the ST rit be worthwhile for the ele knockdowns?

thetwistedboy · Jun 01, 2011, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

The only problem I see is that you are relying on the sometimes poor timing of heroes using RoJ. Unless you intend to micro, or run out in front to ball the group up, you could end up with some embarassing RoJ misses.
It all looks good in theory though.

It is funny because EFGJack is a remarkable player and extremely good at hero micro and hero team building. Of course he is going to ball groups, and at that point it really doesn't matter what the hero decides to RoJ. That's how he plays.

I've been messing around with something very similar to this. Instead of a third RoJ though, I've been really enjoying panic micro, mitigates a lot of damage from spells and whatnot.

Now, a couple questions. Is the damage from "Brace Yourself!" really that impressive? I see it doing 120 extra damage, but It seems that would be pretty negligible with 3 RoJ's, the earth nuker, Balthazar's Aura, and Splinter Weapon.

Why SoA on the second monk only in high level areas? I'd rather have it everywhere. Two chained SoA's seem like they would mitigate a lot more damage than one SoA and Shielding Hands.

Have you tried the Dervish Dwayna Healer? I used it for a couple VQ's and it worked out pretty well. My only beef with it is you need some secondary healing somewhere, like Spirit Light on a Ritualist or Necro because it doesn't deal with spike damage very well with 5s and 10s cooldown heals. Massive party healing though.

Plutoman · Jun 01, 2011, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Please - SoS does mediocre damage compared to RoJ. It's a nice utility, and the ability to use them for body-blocking is nice, but as said - a simple death's charge means you won't need to body block. It's a warrior main, you aren't a caster kiting.

Besides which, go read his post before commenting. Particularly go read up on skills before commenting on combinations.

@Above - the Brace Yourself damage seems rather nice. 120 extra damage to nearby range every 8 seconds is pretty sweet. This is theory, in my case, but that three skill combo seems pretty effective if you want to do the micro. It's gonna do more than quite a few other skill combinations I can think of. And it's on top of it all - more damage means that if you miss a bit, they'll still all die. Or they'll die faster. Or w/e. <_<

Mike Jack · Jun 01, 2011, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Did you try a tactics variant with Soldier's Stance, Drunken/Desperation Blow+Axe skills?The Drunken/Desperation Blow will be dealing +40 damage and a chance to inflict DW while having a permanent IAS. The only issue with it is that it might not have the energy.

hunter · Jun 01, 2011, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by itiscurtains

@hunter: There's only one copy of BiP. Read the description of the earth ele - "His elite slot is versatile and he can take over the BiP necro's role."
Also, JI doesn't work with MoP.
And 12 specced RoJ against a ball of snared foes is better than 16 specced SoS.

@EFGJack: The build looks really interesting, thanks. Going to give it a whirl. I wonder, though - would taking Earthbind on the ST rit be worthwhile for the ele knockdowns?

You are missing the point. If enemies are balled up, all you need to wipe em is 16 chann splinter + a Wirlwind attack. 3 RoJs are overkill

If enemies are balled up, you won before you attacked.

IF HOWEVER ENEMIES ARE NOT BALLED UP. It doesn't matter if you have 1 or 20 RoJs. Get it?

And MoP sucks because of its long cooldown in gen PvE. its good in SCs but i never use it on general HM. And as i said, if enemies are balled up, all you need is lvl 16 splinter and WW attack.

thetwistedboy · Jun 01, 2011, 06:19 AM // 06:19

@hunter That actually won't kill them. I highly doubt that 250 damage is enough to kill a even a lvl 20. The three RoJ's are there because it's a fast and quick nuke combined with other skills such as splinter weapon and MoP.

And MoP is definitely useful. I've seen its effects several times and I was in your position earlier, saying that it was a stupid waste, but trust me. After trying it, MoP is not waste. It has made me wipe a mob not even needing the RoJ's. It's an excellent skill. If it is useless because of its cooldown(20s), SoS has a 30s cooldown, so doesn't that make SoS more useless?

The point of the build is to ball. It's a tank n spank style of play. Hence RoJ's. SoS is would be such an incredible waste in this team. The spirits would be meaningless. Single target damage against a balled mob? Please.

I gotta ask, do you play a Warrior? Or any melee class? Or are you not familiar with bodyblocking/cornerblocking? Are you aware of how this team is supposed to be played?

AndrewSX · Jun 01, 2011, 06:21 AM // 06:21

There's a difference between "Overkill" and "Be sure that this will happen".
Splinter wear off after 4-5 attacks, which IS very good, but wont wipe everything anyway, expecially if you've balled HM meeles. And maybe you wont be able to ball every mob in the area at the same time.
This is why 3 RoJ in a such build aren't overkill: 1 Roj+full splinter to wipe ball 1, recast splinter and prots, ball another, kill it using second roj, and so on....They come on demand microed.

itiscurtains · Jun 01, 2011, 06:30 AM // 06:30

I kinda see hunter's point, actually. In a build with such massive AoE spikes, a 3rd RoJ may be superfluous. The Rit may be more valuable using SoS + Bloodsong for the clean-up role; EFGJack even noted that this build has trouble finishing off stragglers. That would also open up the Rit's secondary - you could spec into Resto, letting the N/Rt invest higher into Blood for Blood Bond and Dark Fury. Or you could even take the Curses off the Necro and toss them on the Rit, move BiP to the Ele, and replace the N/Rt with a Panic/E-Surge/PI + Resto Mesmer. Just a thought.

EFGJack · Jun 01, 2011, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Morning. I understand there are 'the' bars to run as a player and on your heroes. Luckily we're all aware of sites such as wiki and pvx. Anyway, I wasn't playing at the time they changed Brace Yourself and only recently noticed it's potential and I wanted to incorporate it into a team build. The smiter has no means of using Brace Yourself on cooldown without a other hero supplying energy, and if you're not planning on running mass minions the other elites are only so good I decided to go with BiP instead.

The Earth ele indeed can run Unsteady Ground, I was playing around with it for a while but figured Sandstorm is the better alternative at least in the majority of the zones.

@Squishy - this bar is pretty solid if you plan on running Earth Shaker, instead of the Drunken/Desperation Blow bars

@FoxBat - Shadowstepping seems quite solid indeed, I reckon one can change IATS/Scan for a shadowstep in areas that do not explicitly require Asuran Scan from the player

@itiscurtains - Problem is that Earthbind would consume Soul Twisting charges, leaving a possiblity that the defensive spirits will be on cooldown more often than now. It's possible to replace Anguished Was lingblah with Earthbind though.

@thetwistedboy - It's very noticeable damage from Brace. Even against one target, it adds 60~ damage to your current target with every drunken & desperation blow, and naturally the damage is done to everyone within Nearby range. It's not OP or "OVERKILLZ" but it's worth it if you're willing to micro it.
And yeah I know the effectiveness of chaining SoA and the reasoning with having a copy of Shielding Hands instead is that it casts faster and lasts longer and stacks with SoA at the start, and that your hp still drops making mobs more prone on sticking to you. I haven't tried a Dwayna healer, last I loaded a Dervish hero I noticed spells like Fire Storm on his bar. This was in 2008.

@Mike Jack - Soldier's Stance doesn't really offer anyhing spectacular enough to warrant a slot. With Strength you get an IAS and all the energy to run whatever wicked bars comes to your mind. In the warrior builds I linked in the OP I have an attribute spread of 12/9/9, the attack skills from tactics do +30 damage with little benefits lost from Strength.

There's still some uncertainty on the elementalists' and necros' roles, though. I need to look into it.

Quote:

I kinda see hunter's point, actually. In a build with such massive AoE spikes, a 3rd RoJ may be superfluous. The Rit may be more valuable using SoS + Bloodsong for the clean-up role; EFGJack even noted that this build has trouble finishing off stragglers. That would also open up the Rit's secondary - you could spec into Resto, letting the N/Rt invest higher into Blood for Blood Bond and Dark Fury. Or you could even take the Curses off the Necro and toss them on the Rit, move BiP to the Ele, and replace the N/Rt with a Panic/E-Surge/PI + Resto Mesmer. Just a thought.

A Channeling/Resto Ritualist is a strong hero, I use one in most builds, main reason I chose not to use one this time is that, in the end, I only play the same bars over and over again. Partial reasoning was to have less pressure on balling, 3rd Ray helps finish off those that are not fully caught by the other AE spells. Having 3rd copies of Smite Hex and Smite Condition is pretty nifty, too: having 3 of each going off against monsters that stack hexes and conditions can leave a Roj unused for the cleanup. Blood Bond is a powerful skill but it's entirely situational if it's worth the skill slot. I wouldn't bring it with this build, for example. Same goes for Dark Fury.

And as noted above, the last two heroes are a bit shady still. Thanks for input :>

thetwistedboy · Jun 01, 2011, 06:54 AM // 06:54

@hunter
Actually... I tend to be rather narrow viewed at times and I just pulled an all nighter... Nevermind. I see your point with the 3rd RoJ being overkill. SoS could help out a bit with cleanup if there was scatter or not everything balled. Or you didn't ball. I guess it's point of preference.

For me, I'd stick with the 3rd RoJ just because I have serious doubts about the 'amazing dps' of a single SoS without painful bond, so I think the 3rd RoJ would just serve the team better.